Some Open Questions to Chew Upon
Is AVfM a left-wing organization?
Is AVfM a feminist organization?
Is the M(H)RM a left-wing movement?
Is the M(H)RM a feminist movement?
Are Paul Elam, John the Other and Fidelbogen left-wing feminists?
Is GirlWritesWhat a left-wing feminist?
Is Typhonblue a left-wing radical feminist?
(I heard somebody say that Typhonblue is a "radical feminist", so I thought I should bring that up!)
Okay. Please give your serious thoughtful consideration to these very, very, very serious questions. . . . . . .
Is AVfM a feminist organization?
Is the M(H)RM a left-wing movement?
Is the M(H)RM a feminist movement?
Are Paul Elam, John the Other and Fidelbogen left-wing feminists?
Is GirlWritesWhat a left-wing feminist?
Is Typhonblue a left-wing radical feminist?
(I heard somebody say that Typhonblue is a "radical feminist", so I thought I should bring that up!)
Okay. Please give your serious thoughtful consideration to these very, very, very serious questions. . . . . . .
posted by Fidelbogen at 3:21 PM
23 Comments:
Yes.
Yes.
Yes - but simply calling it left wing over-simplifies it.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
The problem here is that too many people have different definitions of feminist.
To me, I see women educated in Liberal Arts schools (from the last 50 years) who have been brainwashed with hatred of left-wing politics and a hatred of men - mind you - not a liking of left-wing politics - but a hatred of right-wing politics - hence, they call themselves left-wing.
Also, when I hear feminist, I am thinking of some instructor in college (like say Sociology) who puts questions on tests like, "How many children has the average man of 30 fantasized about having sex with".
When I think of feminists, I think of women that want to chop off men's dicks - eventhough they have never met their "evil rapist oppressors".
When I think of feminists, I think of women that well - hate men.
Other people, seem to believe that feminists are a bunch of traditionalists - as Bernard Chapin and notanmra correctly identified, "Traditionalist" is a strawman.
Traditions are defined by the speaker - by pseudo-science - not by facts or history.
Hence, many MRA/anti-feminists openly support all the things that feminists do - or - worse - they get really angry and bitter over things that feminism had nothing to do with - instead - it was the fault of all those nasty "traditionalists".
This is also why in the MRM, you see many people saying that feminists should not be the enemy of the MRM...
This is really getting fun!!!
Watching a slew of people make complete fools out of themselves.
Dang, if I had kids, I'd ask all of you if you were available for children's birthday parties!!!
'Crowe:
I have no idea where such a garbled heap of disconnected ideas came from.
So anyway ...I am a non-feminist, and I am working to put feminism out of business.
What about you? Are you in on this?
Well I guess it rests on me to say the obvious. Idiots like Bernard chapin and rocking mr e are the reason there's this ridiculous mccarthyistic paranoia about who's a "left wing" mra these days. Thier obsession with political right wing partisanship stinks bad and infects the mrm along with it. They provide no actual innovative analysis of feminism other than "cultural Marxism" conspiracy nonsense, and in return we get a particularly odious right wing image plastered on to us. Not that the left wing is good, it's not, but we don't need chapins political baggage either.
"This is also why in the MRM, you see many people saying that feminists should not be the enemy of the MRM..."
Two serious things wrong with that statement.
1. "MRM" is a straw construction; there is no such thing as this. . ."MRM".
2. I have never heard anybody saying what you say they are saying, above.(Other than a hand full of loopy feminists who say that "MRAs" should "work with feminism".) But I have heard great numbers vehemently declaring the opposite. So...I am not sure where you get your information.
On another note: Nobody is "blaming" so-called "traditionalism" for feminism. What's actually being said, is that the ENTIRE CULTURE is to blame for "feminism". Mainly by way of gynocentrism. -- which is shared equally across the entire culture.
I would seriously recommend that you take a refresher course in Adam Kostakis:
http://gynotheory.blogspot.com
Looks like some comments got 'swallowed' by the Blogger system when I tried to publish them.
I do not know why, but they are not appearing.
In other news....
"Left" and "Right" are equally screwed up, and equally responsible for creating feminism.
That's EQUALITY for ya! ;)
Gotta love it!
many people saying that feminists should not be the enemy of the mrm...
I also never heard of that and since it does seem to defy common sense, or any sense, could you expand upon that?
Just fyi, I think blogspot may allow you to present those questions in a little survey, get some numbers. Overall I don't know whether each of those people are left or right wing, I don't have the political xray vision of certain youtube mras. I don't think AVFM is left in particular, but I do think the pc mentality, like feminism, is like a cancer, it creeps in and gets a foothold, and then is self-replicating.
Chapin and Mr. E - their odd manner re politics, funny, Bernard actually owns to voting for Obama first time thru - ever heard the phrase "nothing like a convert" Bernard? Now that you've got it all figured out, everyone who doesn't toe your line is - "ad hominen".
Doesn't keep me thinking he's actually great in his own way. Great men always have a flaw or weakness, sometimes it ruins their works, sometimes not.
The thing that gets me about the McCarthy like behavior is that it sounds so much like the feminist ideologues, sounds like their rigid group think. What if the only MRA sites were of this sort, how would that effect things.
I appreciate Fidel (hey, isn't that Castro's first name - LEFTIST!!!) just joking, appreciate Castro's, I mean Fidel's effort to bleed this thing a little.
When I see the word 'human' creep in, I notice the word 'man' slip out.
I don't care who is feminist/non-feminist, who is left/right wing, or who is semantically/rhetorically/dialetically talented.
I am only interested in what holds my interest. Paul Elam did up until recently. He's a talented man and a gifted writer. But argue as you will about the validity of his direction, I can no longer visit AVfM and expect a good read. I've begun to notice I have to observe a certain discipline whilst there, and it moved in with the women.
Frankly, I get enough of that everywhere else.
Provided entirely in the spirit of honest feedback. It's got to the point where I wouldn't dare leave this same message on AVfM.
Left and right did not equally create feminism.
The left created it - that is a fact.
The right simply failed to act adequately to stop it.
And - your point is taken Fidelbogen - MRM is also a strawman.
However - the difference here - MRA's call themselves MRA's.
Those self-purported MRA's then use the strawman "traditionalist" to basically bash the self-purported MRA's who are not left-wing - or do not HATE the right wing.
This all starts on our college campuses -
Hatred of Men.
Hatred of Right Wing.
Hatred of Success
Hatred of Religion.
And that stems from something called "political correctness".
The anonymouse poster who called Rockin Mr E and Bernard "idiots" - well - the fact that he or she posted anonymousely speaks volumes.
@Crow:
If Cultural gynocentrism did not exist on the Right, then feminism, on the Left, or anywhere else, could not exist.
Why do so many alt-right and male paternalist types attack the pro-male movement just as viciously as the feminists do? The bottom line is that they are gynocentrists who believe in male disposability as much as do the feminists. They only differ from the feminists in not being gynonormative.
To make it clear, the cohort which I belong to rejects both gynocentrism AND gynonormativity.
A classically liberal form of "equality" ought to be promoted, so that women can experience full extistential agency and existential adulthood -- i.e. the natural consequences which are consistent with the operation of First Principles.
Cool, questions! This should be fun, yippee!!!
"Is AVfM a left-wing organization?"
No.
"Is AVfM a feminist organization?"
Not quite, but they are leaning toward gynocentrism with their obsessive promotion of female contributors over male contributors.
"Is the M(H)RM a left-wing movement?"
No such thing.
"Is the M(H)RM a feminist movement?"
No such thing.
"Are Paul Elam, John the Other and Fidelbogen left-wing feminists?"
Not quite, but with the recent ruthless censorship and "PC" lobbying practiced by all of these people, they are headed down a slippery slope.
"Is GirlWritesWhat a left-wing feminist?"
No comment.
"Is Typhonblue a left-wing radical feminist?"
No, but she is a self-interested gynocentrist. Which is absolutely fine with me, she's done good work regardless. It should be acknowledged, though.
"Why do so many alt-right and male paternalist types attack the pro-male movement just as viciously as the feminists do?"
Egads.
First of all, I am a registered independent. I rarely vote, because there is nobody worth voting for. You are just name-calling here.
"Male paternalist?!" - are you for real?
"attack the pro-male movement". Oh - I was not aware it was a pro-male movement. Even as forweg mentioned above - "it is leaning towards gynocentrism" - this is not "pro-male".
"just as the feminists do".
Forweg just called TyphoidBlue a " self-interested gynocentrist".
So, a "self-interested gynocentrist" is not a feminist - nawww...
Instead of saying I am attacking the "pro-male" movement - why not say I am attacking "self-interested gynocentrists".
Oh yeah - this is a witch hunt...
Sorry - I forgot.
Just say, "AHA! He is attacking the pro-male movement and is clearly alt-right!"
What - Utter - Crap
"What about you? Are you in on this?"
That depends - what is feminism in your mind?
A bunch of traditionalists - who are all now dead - but you can just tell what they were thinking back then and how much they hated men?
A bunch of men-hating women - actually alive here today in the present and demonstrating their hatred of men in an obviously apparent manner?
How about we start with what a feminist is NOT according to forweg:
A radical left-wing feminist is NOT a "self-interested gynocentrist" - being such a thing and at the same time involved in a "pro-male" movement is "fine with him"!!!
Good effing grief - and you are saying that I am attacking a "pro-male" movement...
What was it you said to me again - hang on...
Oh yeah -
"Do you simply not pay attention?"
Un-freakin-believable.
I agree with above, calling B.C. and Mr. E. idiots just abuses the term, contributes to the loss of its actual meaning and gravity.
Is there a simple definition of "the left" here? My general take on it is it's people who want to use laws, pc police, and groupthink to empower themselves and disempower the individual. I think a lot of personal riders are attached to it and confuse the issue. Many religions/churches would fit easily into my definition, and I think it is a form of spiritualist marxism, so I do not believe it's an inherently leftist thing to be antireligion. I think that Adolf Hitler's leadership was strongly leftist, but also incorporated many values and beliefs that were about personal honor, hard work, integrity etc., that's because ideologues will always espouse some virtues, like a wolf in sheep's clothing.
I don't stop reading AVFM yet, but I agree with above poster, something in the water now. Something has changed, in a PC/AtheismPlus sort of way. I'll be watching.
Incidentally, when those folks decided to "change" MRA to MHRA, that's their decision to make for themselves. Any intention whatsoever, to 'enforce' the change in any other, shows they have elected themselves leaders and figureheads, no longer mere contributors. Is that what they consider themselves?
I never got a vote, but I never was an MRA anyway, simply not much of a joiner. I'll never be policed in any way by any person regardless of their appendages, popularity or political standing, to adapt a particular political term.
I like 'non-feminist', but that is because I thought about it, and I agree. I don't like cancer, but I'm not anti-cancer, I don't own a cattle farm, but I can still recognize a cow patty (feminism, for example). And hey, I'm not anti-cow patty, everything in it's place, eh feminists?
Is AVfM a left-wing organization?
Getting there. The leftists scrambled hard to co-opt AVFM as the most visible head of the so-called "MRM". Just as I, and others,warned they would.
Is AVfM a feminist organization?
No. Not feminist,but quickly becoming hostile to men openly expressing themselves. As soon as this happens, it's a short ride to what most MRA's would identify as "feminism",namely gynocentrism and gynonormativity.
Is the M(H)RM a left-wing movement?
No. I've seen this charge made over and over by retards such as Matt Forney and considerably more intelligent people like the Oz Conservative. While the M(H)RM arguably adopts leftwing tactics from time to time,their goals are divergent from the goals of the Left as a bloc.
Is the M(H)RM a feminist movement?
If you go by the dictionary definition of "equality between the sexes",this claim is half-true. However,we all know feminists are not people who are interested in equality between the sexes. Half of the Men's Movement is for complete equality, the other half is for a "separate but equal" approach that values the human worth of both sexes equally but estimates their utility and role in society using a "gendered" metric.
Are Paul Elam, John the Other and Fidelbogen left-wing feminists?
No. However, Paul and John are enthusiastically lapping up their most poisonous precept, thought control. They go far beyond regulating and disciplining our ranks into the concept of thoughtcrime. They also take their "no violence" policy way too seriously. Like the poster above, I sense an atmosphere of oppression descending on the readers of AVFM from their own trusted compatriots. If you can't speak your mind among friends,you don't have anything, even if the MRM gets everything it asks for.
Is GirlWritesWhat a left-wing feminist?
No. She's Canadian. Similar,by American standards,but not the same.
Is Typhonblue a left-wing radical feminist?
No. But she's definitely a feminist of a sort."Equity feminist","I-feminist" I don't care what she calls herself,I don't fully trust her. If affecting feminist jargon gets her closer to taking down the Borg hive mind from within,then I will shamefacedly apologize for that remark and admit the brilliance of her strategy. If,on the other hand, she gets swallowed up by Team Woman and hamstering in the process,it may be best to cut her adrift. She does solid work from time to time,I like her,but I can't completely trust anyone that deep in the soup of Patriarchy Theories and Rape Cultures and what-have-you,man or woman.
As Anonymous from 10:02 observed,the quality of AVFM writing has taken a nosedive,and Paul Elam,at least, is increasingly authoritarian and irritable towards the wrong people, and a bizarre sort of de facto rigeur is being instituted by thinning the ranks of everyone with a different outlook or approach.This affects everyone who writes there,as long as Elam calls the shots.
Could it be there's a pod somewhere, hidden inside Paul Elam's house or garage, holding him in a deep sleep while... ?
I remember thinking he was a little too far off a deep end a long time ago, when I listened to one of his videos where he was smugly suggesting he might just "buy" the little senorita waitress... By me, that's actually offensive, I don't ever "buy" anyone, or joke about it, especially indigents. Seems like Mr. Elam is singing quite a different tune now... is this what you call an inconsistency? Are we witnessing the birth of a... gray knight? Will AVFM ultimately end up in the capable hands of several women... is it that easy?
How do women turn to feminism incidentally... due to leftist thought... no, it's their natural tendency to mother, and control. Leftism does that politically, feminism does that naturally. It's only when it gets out of hand, when there's no checks and balances, the mothering and control... goes to vinegar.
But I need to think on it further, I think I'll go find a park bench somewhere, in Vancouver, shaped like a vagina, and think, I mean, feel, about it. (vagina!)
Fidelbogen:
Well, today the AVfM crew called for 'male reproductive rights.' All so-called reproductive rights, including abortion, are wholly feminist-defined. And this is what they claim is empowering to men.
http://www.avoiceformen.com/women/hypergamy/why-equal-reproductive-rights-benefit-everyone/
Liberal or otherwise, this group is a gang of feminists.
By male reproductive rights, don't they mean that if a man does not agree to the fatherhood of the child, he can relinquish his rights, but also the requirement to support a child he does not want? Wouldn't this prevent women from being able to financially rape a man, by seducing him, having his baby, then using the state to force him to pay to raise it, often also using the state to diminish his right to parent and influence the child?
What would be a better solution?
Anon725:
The better solution would be to take the State out of the equation altogether and let women who get knocked up by feral thugs fend for themselves. And there are plenty of orphanages and adoption agencies who'll take unwanted children.
No, because we are far beyond that, medically and technologically, the state does not have the right to make a decision to force a person to have an abortion, it should not even be attempting to influencing that personal decision, after all, "the personal is NOT political". Therefore the state also has no business telling people the can not or ought not have an abortion. I believe in freedom, including from the state, as much as is feasible. State, NOR YOU, are entitled to make such decisions for other people. You want them out of your bedroom, and gun rights, so do I. That means you stay out of theirs, with your religious (false) doctrines. That's all this is, coopt men's rights to include your religious agenda, you should stop, but I know you won't, and I also know you won't succeed with that.
1.Yes
2.Yes
3.No
4.Not yet
5.Yes - Fidelbogen is exempt
6.She's getting there
7.A feminist rapidly getting radical
I've said it too many times before. Paul Elam lost the plot when he decided to engage in shrill debate with David "Manboobz" Futrelle; and the rot really set in when he brought Erin Pizzey on board. Even his pet psychologist, Tara Palmatier, her-stories most things she writes on.
And it seems that even where offspring are concerned men are being lionized. The scary thing is that it is even encroaching on sperm donors. I recently read of a man being forced to pay child support for a child a lesbian couple birthed with his donated sperm. And this even though he had signed away his birth rights.
Just a note. I have refrained from commenting thus far.
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